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Post by Retro Jimbue on Feb 24, 2009 18:15:37 GMT -5
oh!!!.....he's asking!!!!.....
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Post by POTY on Feb 24, 2009 18:51:17 GMT -5
I hope you're not really asking if I'm defending roids, POTY. Take a look at my posts on the issue. What I'm taking issue with is the idea that greenies are so much less corrupting of the game - they both give players a significant edge in different ways. Greenies don't help a hitter hit the ball farther, or a pitcher throw the ball harder, but they enabled players to play in circumstances when they otherwise couldn't, or at least not at an effective level. Which one did more to corrupt the game? I really don't know, but I think downplaying the effect of greenies on the game is a dangerous path. And, perhaps more to the point, players were taking both to get an edge - the intent is the same, so that even if roids did give players more of an edge, was using greenies any less a cheat than using roids? I don't think so. I don't know too many people that feel that greenies have had the impact that roids have had, and for me it just clouds the discussion. I agree that the intent may have been similar in that it is to gain an edge, but roids were and are designed to actually make physical changes to your body. I don't think greenies had this affect. I guess the roids discussion is big enough for me without turning the conversation into something that goes back to the 40's.
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Post by Retro Jimbue on Feb 24, 2009 19:10:41 GMT -5
who said they had the same impact? .......i thought we were talking about cheating???.....
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Post by POTY on Feb 24, 2009 19:21:19 GMT -5
Very interesting story, and more importantly, perhaps it explains your position on this topic more than anything. I too played a lot of ball, both organized and in the street, although I never had the wiseguys placing side bets on our games that I knew of. Regardless, I never took any kind of drug to give me a boost. I never felt I needed it. If my body was not playing up to it's capabilities due to fatigue, I still tried my best. I just never thought twice about doing something other than working very hard. If the question is, does greenies or amphetamines give as much a boost as steroids, I honestly cannot answer that. If it was something that was brought to the public's attention back then, I probably would have felt just as much against it. But then again, I was a kid and I may not have felt so strongly about it. If a generation was left in the dark, this does not mean that we should turn a blind eye on what we know to be true now. yeah i know po.....let's not get too personal here......if you like playing judge and jury that's fine but we've been through this holier then thou routine before......let's not revisit it!!!!..... JB, I'm not judging. I only said that it helps in understanding your position. Personally, I give you a lot of credit for standing up for what you have done in the past. I do not mean to come across with a holier than thou attitude, but I know the difference between right and wrong, and I happen to express it. My feeling is that baseball needs to draw a HARD line on this issue. It's not acceptable .....period. Unfortunately, those who are in charge of protecting the game have been asleep at the wheel, and I am pissed. Then we start bringing up greenies and their place in the game. Listen, I don't have all the answers. I am against ANYTHING that gives you an UNFAIR advantage. I believe in standing by the guys who have done it the right way, not the guys who were serving their own self interests. Yes, there is a principle here, and I am not afraid to say that I stand on the side of what I believe to be right. If that rubs people the wrong way, I am sorry. It is not my intent. I'm NOT going to stand behind A-Rod because he is a Yankee and rail against FAT HEAD. To me, that's being a hypercrit. A-Rod has a chance to redeem himself, but he is going to have to EARN it. Let's see what he does to earn it. Let's see how he addresses the Girls and Boys club that he has been making commercials for. Let's see how he acknowledges the impact he has on kids who are hanging his poster on their wall or buying A-Rod jerseys.
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Post by RJPinstripes on Feb 24, 2009 20:05:31 GMT -5
Not sure here, but roids are against the law, and I'm not sure greenies are against the law? ?
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Post by Retro Jimbue on Feb 24, 2009 20:10:08 GMT -5
tell me po!!!....what makes baseball any different than life???......and what makes you think i don't know the difference between right and wrong.....you telling me you've never made the wrong decision???......you telling me you've never came up short???......i respect your opinion just like i respect everyone else's......but you can't treat every discussion with black and white opinions.......when there are huge grey areas.......maybe if i knew you personally i wouldn't react to some of the things you say cause i'd sort of know where your coming from and sometimes things that are written do not read as they are meant to be.......the fact that you write that my story is "very interesting" and "perhaps" it explains my position on this topic is a bit patronizing.....at least i took it that way!!!......truth is at 18 years old i went from playing maybe 3 games a week to playing maybe 10-12 on two or three different teams......and the fact that you throw in "if your body wasn't performing due to fatigue you still tried your best".....please are you serious? .......how do you think that comes off after you just read what i had to say? ......now i'm not trying to justify my behavior but let me explain something here.......i was a kid who loved baseball more then anything.....but pu$$y was a close second and i would have done anything to hang onto the kid in me that loved baseball .......i was good always had been .....i was a neighborhood kid who could play......anybody who was playing ball in the 5 boro's knew the teams and probably knew me.......that's alot for a kid who was already realizing that playing ss for the yankees (which was my dream) wasn't happening........so you rationalize and you minimize and you continue this until you burn out ......and when you do......you reach for help......when i crossed the lines i wanted to absolutely be the best player on the field......trouble is the longer you play the better the competion .......and when it's 90 in august and your in the fourth game of back to back double headers you do what you gotta do........mayber there were some kids who didn't take up's but for me to play a game and not be the best i could be i'd rather not play.......it's alot of pressure believe me and eventually i caved.......it took years of this before i did but i caved......i waved the white flag and surrendered......don't get me wrong i still played ball but i picked my spots and f$%ked everything that moved and drank and got high and did all those things that i wouldn't have done 5-6 years before that......now while this part of my life was spinning out of control i was still a good son and good brother a good nephew and wonderful cousin and a terrific friend.......i was loyal to who was loyal to me!!!!......sometimes loyalty made me make decisions and cut corners or lie but i put my head on my pillow and i went to sleep like a baby......cause i knew in my heart what i did was right......even if it wasn't.......that may make no sense to some but where i grew up and the way i grew up .......it made sense to me!!!!.......i have plenty of faults and my share of demons just like everyone else.......but one thing that has kept me alive (you should only know how many friends i buried) is i never take things black and white.......i like to look beyond it.....try to understand.....sometimes i fall short but it's worked so far.......i've rambled too long but your post pi$$ed me off......nothing personal i'm over it ......but i had to let you know where i stood!!!
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Post by DavidL on Feb 24, 2009 20:45:56 GMT -5
Not sure here, but roids are against the law, and I'm not sure greenies are against the law? ? Amphetemines are a controlled substance. Possession without a prescription is a Federal offense. Some amphetemines are flat-out illegal. And they've been illegal longer than steroids have been.
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Post by Retro Jimbue on Feb 24, 2009 21:00:51 GMT -5
they were certainly illegal back in the day!!!.......although they were easy to acquire......tough to come down though!!!.....f#$k'n things never gave up.......you had to drink yourself to sleep.......oh yeah!!!.....one more drawback.......i doubt viagra coulda helped erect a pup tent!!!!......
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Post by POTY on Feb 24, 2009 22:01:23 GMT -5
tell me po!!!....what makes baseball any different than life???......and what makes you think i don't know the difference between right and wrong.....you telling me you've never made the wrong decision???......you telling me you've never came up short???......i respect your opinion just like i respect everyone else's......but you can't treat every discussion with black and white opinions.......when there are huge grey areas.......maybe if i knew you personally i wouldn't react to some of the things you say cause i'd sort of know where your coming from and sometimes things that are written do not read as they are meant to be.......the fact that you write that my story is "very interesting" and "perhaps" it explains my position on this topic is a bit patronizing.....at least i took it that way!!!......truth is at 18 years old i went from playing maybe 3 games a week to playing maybe 10-12 on two or three different teams......and the fact that you throw in "if your body wasn't performing due to fatigue you still tried your best".....please are you serious? .......how do you think that comes off after you just read what i had to say? ......now i'm not trying to justify my behavior but let me explain something here.......i was a kid who loved baseball more then anything.....but pu$$y was a close second and i would have done anything to hang onto the kid in me that loved baseball .......i was good always had been .....i was a neighborhood kid who could play......anybody who was playing ball in the 5 boro's knew the teams and probably knew me.......that's alot for a kid who was already realizing that playing ss for the yankees (which was my dream) wasn't happening........so you rationalize and you minimize and you continue this until you burn out ......and when you do......you reach for help......when i crossed the lines i wanted to absolutely be the best player on the field......trouble is the longer you play the better the competion .......and when it's 90 in august and your in the fourth game of back to back double headers you do what you gotta do........mayber there were some kids who didn't take up's but for me to play a game and not be the best i could be i'd rather not play.......it's alot of pressure believe me and eventually i caved.......it took years of this before i did but i caved......i waved the white flag and surrendered......don't get me wrong i still played ball but i picked my spots and f$%ked everything that moved and drank and got high and did all those things that i wouldn't have done 5-6 years before that......now while this part of my life was spinning out of control i was still a good son and good brother a good nephew and wonderful cousin and a terrific friend.......i was loyal to who was loyal to me!!!!......sometimes loyalty made me make decisions and cut corners or lie but i put my head on my pillow and i went to sleep like a baby......cause i knew in my heart what i did was right......even if it wasn't.......that may make no sense to some but where i grew up and the way i grew up .......it made sense to me!!!!.......i have plenty of faults and my share of demons just like everyone else.......but one thing that has kept me alive (you should only know how many friends i buried) is i never take things black and white.......i like to look beyond it.....try to understand.....sometimes i fall short but it's worked so far.......i've rambled too long but your post pi$$ed me off......nothing personal i'm over it ......but i had to let you know where i stood!!! Glad you got that off your chest. I don't take it too personally,but I wasn't trying to patronize you. I don't really know you, but when you explain a bit of your past and I can see where it has shaped your view on this subject, I did not mean to offend you. JB, the streets you came from are the same streets I came from. I waqs no angl growing up and I understand what you mean when you say you did what you thought was right even though you knew it wasn't right. Most of my childhood friends are dead or in jail. I survived on the streets, literally, for a considerable amount of time on my own because I didn't want to take a handout from anyone, and I was too proud to let family help. I saw junkies turning their brains to mush, street hustlers running con games, wise guys and wanna be wise guys turning to a life of crime. Yes, I had to somehow make it through that maze without subcombing to all the things that were pulling me in those directions. For the most part I got through it without committing any major crimes, turning to drugs, or otherwise becoming a burden to society. I had every reason to use an excuse to fall into a life leading nowhere. My father, my idol, died when I was 12. My mother couldn't handle the loss, and couldn't handle us kids. At 14 I was working 3 jobs instead of going to school, and I was hanging out with a group that was just as misguided. At 22 I made the wisest move of my life. I joined the Navy. Not only did I join the Navy, I was selected for submarine service, which was a very exclusive special force in the military. It was in the Navy that I not only learned, but saw first hand what the power of setting your mind to something can do. It was there that excuses were not tolerated, and you had to hold yourself accountable. It was there that I became a man. It was there that I understood the awesome responsibility of standing in harms way for my friends, family, and every American. It was there that I was given a second chance to do things right. What I learned on the street kept me alive, but I often had to do what I had to do to survive, so lying, stealing, cheating, etc. etc was my way of life. Luckily, a better way found me, but I had to accept these changes. It was in the Navy that I realized that I can be whoever I wanted to be if I was willing to work hard enough at it. What does this have to do with steroids......probably nothing directly. But perhaps it explains my "holier than thou" attitude that you like to throw in my face. I am not holier than though, but yes, I do have HIGH expectations, and I believe ANYONE who has been given the honor and privelage of playing baseball for a job should be willing to set an example that goes beyond reproach. David Robinson, the former Navy cadet and eventual pro basketball player is a prime example of what I consider am athlete should be. Unfortunately, everyone does not hold themselves up to such high standards, and when you are in the public eye, that is too bad. JB, I'm sorry I pissed you off. I too get pissed off when I hear people making excuses. I don't care if it is greenies, blackies, roids, andro .....whatever. I want the game I played and grew up loving to be a clean as the driven frikin snow, and if someone is doing something to tarnish that. I STAND AGAINST THEM. What you did is your own business, and I am sure you felt justified, but at the same time, there was a part of you that must have realized that it was not the right thing to do. Pro athlete are no less vulnerable than any other human being, but they SHOULD aspire to set a SHINING EXAMPLE to the rest of us, especially kids who look up to them. Unfortunately, the athletes today do not take this too seriously. As Charles Barkley once said, "I'm no role model". I guess he had something there, because he sure wasn't.
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Post by asburyboss on Feb 24, 2009 22:05:00 GMT -5
POTY...by your standard 100% of today's players are dirty- and there in lies the original intent of this post. 100% of players use something, steal signs, shave a bat, scuff a ball...or, in other words- CHEAT. I played the game professionally and as a little green 18 yo kid from lilly white CT I was absolutely shocked at what I saw in my first 48 hours. Rehabbing pitchers with HEROIN in their locker and getting their fix in the 4th inning. Starting pitchers who are between starts paid $$ for figuring out signs and stealing em. Cocaine open and out in a clubhouse. Catching clinics on how to peel a rivet back on your glove so everytime you pulled the ball out of the glove you'd slice it. Bullpen pitchers who could use binoculars to get catchers signals, signal the 3d base coach who would use verbal signals to tell the batter what pitch is coming. First baseman and 3d baseman with petroleum jelly under their hat. You wanna know why teams "throw the ball around" after strike outs??? That's why. This was late 80s, early 90's- relatively modern baseball. In my first year in pro ball I played in Billings Montana in the Pioneer League. It is infamously known as the Bus League. It is GRUELING. Not one, not a single player playing in that league wasn't on something. NOT ONE. We 3 "off-days" that summer. Three. And one of those "off-days" was a "travel day" from Medicine Hat, Canada (left around midnight) and drove 20 effing hours to Salt Lake City where we had a day game the next day. Btw- the bus driver stopped 1 time for gas. That guy was zapped out of his bird!!! A good friend of mine- who will remain anonymous- he didn't ask for this- was a bonus baby oklahoma kid. by the end of the first year he needed TJ surgery (he was an OF with a gun)...he came back to ST the next year and was strung out on pain killers. He never made it out of rookie ball. But he became known as the "pharmacist"- cuz he could get ya whatever you wanted. A routine of rehabbing players who had the run of the medicine cabinet. Like I said- not one player passes your sniff test. The game is built on cheating. The first pitcher to throw a curveball was considered a cheat. People evolve, the game evolves- and that isn't to give people a "pass" or make an excuse for them. It isn't. But personally I think I have a perspective that nobody else here has. I've seen stuff "in the game" that would make you and George Will and Ken Burns and every other "purist" puke. Its just the way it is... Steroids have become the convenient target for that crowd. I GET that. But has there ever been a report that PROVES unequivocally, steroids "advantages" I've never seen it. In fact, back when I played if you "lifted weights" in the off season you were fined. It was thought that big muscles hurt baseball players. It was written in my contract that I could NOT lift weights. Suddenly, everyone is caught up in this idea that you take "boli" and you're hitting 75 HRs a year and "cheating" while the first baseman just cut the ball so the pitcher can break your bat. Everybody cheats. ALL of them. I guarantee it.
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Post by asburyboss on Feb 24, 2009 22:11:14 GMT -5
Btw- percoset and vicodin are the no.1 drug of choice for baseball players.
Zero pain, 100% of the time.
"Greenies" are nice...but reality is you can stack red bull, mountain dew, starbucks coffee, and sugar packets to get "up"
Every clubhouse has an expresso machine
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Post by Retro Jimbue on Feb 24, 2009 22:21:14 GMT -5
yeah because they're playing day in and day out and traveling when they ain't playing.......makes sense.....pain killers have been popular forever ......
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Post by Retro Jimbue on Feb 24, 2009 22:30:05 GMT -5
tell me po!!!....what makes baseball any different than life???......and what makes you think i don't know the difference between right and wrong.....you telling me you've never made the wrong decision???......you telling me you've never came up short???......i respect your opinion just like i respect everyone else's......but you can't treat every discussion with black and white opinions.......when there are huge grey areas.......maybe if i knew you personally i wouldn't react to some of the things you say cause i'd sort of know where your coming from and sometimes things that are written do not read as they are meant to be.......the fact that you write that my story is "very interesting" and "perhaps" it explains my position on this topic is a bit patronizing.....at least i took it that way!!!......truth is at 18 years old i went from playing maybe 3 games a week to playing maybe 10-12 on two or three different teams......and the fact that you throw in "if your body wasn't performing due to fatigue you still tried your best".....please are you serious? .......how do you think that comes off after you just read what i had to say? ......now i'm not trying to justify my behavior but let me explain something here.......i was a kid who loved baseball more then anything.....but pu$$y was a close second and i would have done anything to hang onto the kid in me that loved baseball .......i was good always had been .....i was a neighborhood kid who could play......anybody who was playing ball in the 5 boro's knew the teams and probably knew me.......that's alot for a kid who was already realizing that playing ss for the yankees (which was my dream) wasn't happening........so you rationalize and you minimize and you continue this until you burn out ......and when you do......you reach for help......when i crossed the lines i wanted to absolutely be the best player on the field......trouble is the longer you play the better the competion .......and when it's 90 in august and your in the fourth game of back to back double headers you do what you gotta do........mayber there were some kids who didn't take up's but for me to play a game and not be the best i could be i'd rather not play.......it's alot of pressure believe me and eventually i caved.......it took years of this before i did but i caved......i waved the white flag and surrendered......don't get me wrong i still played ball but i picked my spots and f$%ked everything that moved and drank and got high and did all those things that i wouldn't have done 5-6 years before that......now while this part of my life was spinning out of control i was still a good son and good brother a good nephew and wonderful cousin and a terrific friend.......i was loyal to who was loyal to me!!!!......sometimes loyalty made me make decisions and cut corners or lie but i put my head on my pillow and i went to sleep like a baby......cause i knew in my heart what i did was right......even if it wasn't.......that may make no sense to some but where i grew up and the way i grew up .......it made sense to me!!!!.......i have plenty of faults and my share of demons just like everyone else.......but one thing that has kept me alive (you should only know how many friends i buried) is i never take things black and white.......i like to look beyond it.....try to understand.....sometimes i fall short but it's worked so far.......i've rambled too long but your post pi$$ed me off......nothing personal i'm over it ......but i had to let you know where i stood!!! Glad you got that off your chest. I don't take it too personally,but I wasn't trying to patronize you. I don't really know you, but when you explain a bit of your past and I can see where it has shaped your view on this subject, I did not mean to offend you. JB, the streets you came from are the same streets I came from. I waqs no angl growing up and I understand what you mean when you say you did what you thought was right even though you knew it wasn't right. Most of my childhood friends are dead or in jail. I survived on the streets, literally, for a considerable amount of time on my own because I didn't want to take a handout from anyone, and I was too proud to let family help. I saw junkies turning their brains to mush, street hustlers running con games, wise guys and wanna be wise guys turning to a life of crime. Yes, I had to somehow make it through that maze without subcombing to all the things that were pulling me in those directions. For the most part I got through it without committing any major crimes, turning to drugs, or otherwise becoming a burden to society. I had every reason to use an excuse to fall into a life leading nowhere. My father, my idol, died when I was 12. My mother couldn't handle the loss, and couldn't handle us kids. At 14 I was working 3 jobs instead of going to school, and I was hanging out with a group that was just as misguided. At 22 I made the wisest move of my life. I joined the Navy. Not only did I join the Navy, I was selected for submarine service, which was a very exclusive special force in the military. It was in the Navy that I not only learned, but saw first hand what the power of setting your mind to something can do. It was there that excuses were not tolerated, and you had to hold yourself accountable. It was there that I became a man. It was there that I understood the awesome responsibility of standing in harms way for my friends, family, and every American. It was there that I was given a second chance to do things right. What I learned on the street kept me alive, but I often had to do what I had to do to survive, so lying, stealing, cheating, etc. etc was my way of life. Luckily, a better way found me, but I had to accept these changes. It was in the Navy that I realized that I can be whoever I wanted to be if I was willing to work hard enough at it. What does this have to do with steroids......probably nothing directly. But perhaps it explains my "holier than thou" attitude that you like to throw in my face. I am not holier than though, but yes, I do have HIGH expectations, and I believe ANYONE who has been given the honor and privelage of playing baseball for a job should be willing to set an example that goes beyond reproach. David Robinson, the former Navy cadet and eventual pro basketball player is a prime example of what I consider am athlete should be. Unfortunately, everyone does not hold themselves up to such high standards, and when you are in the public eye, that is too bad. JB, I'm sorry I pissed you off. I too get pissed off when I hear people making excuses. I don't care if it is greenies, blackies, roids, andro .....whatever. I want the game I played and grew up loving to be a clean as the driven frikin snow, and if someone is doing something to tarnish that. I STAND AGAINST THEM. What you did is your own business, and I am sure you felt justified, but at the same time, there was a part of you that must have realized that it was not the right thing to do. Pro athlete are no less vulnerable than any other human being, but they SHOULD aspire to set a SHINING EXAMPLE to the rest of us, especially kids who look up to them. Unfortunately, the athletes today do not take this too seriously. As Charles Barkley once said, "I'm no role model". I guess he had something there, because he sure wasn't. we're good!!!.....i guess we need guys like you to balance it out!!!......btw i wish ab was around earlier ......woulda saved me alot of rehashing!!!.....thanks buddy!!!
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Post by POTY on Feb 25, 2009 7:34:24 GMT -5
AB, and others. I can see you guys are really pouring your heart and soul into this discussion, and frankly, while there is some disagreement, I mostly appreciate this kind of in depth analysis. Yes, if we are to consider stealing signs and the host of things you mentioned, not only are they cheating by my standards, they are cheating by your standards and probably anyone else's. It has been going on since the beginning of time in baseball. But I do not see this in the same way that I see steroids. And while I may not be able to produce the study on steroids that you ask for, I can see with my own two eyes players who all of a sudden are ROUTINELY hitting 500 + foot home runs, so I would conclude that it does have a performance enhancing affect. In my view, I am willing to accept that "cheating" goes on throughout just about every human endeavor. But if we can keep the discussion about synthetically produced chemicals that are designed for the sole purpose of altering your physiological make-up then perhaps we can find some common ground. This is not necessarily about me being a purest, but if pothers see it that way so be it.
So here we have a period in baseball were EVERYONE is turning their heads the other way. It's pretty damn obvious that this form of cheating is changing the game as we know it pretty dramatically. Are we too shrug it off and just chalk it up as part of the game as any other form of cheating? What about the guys who are not using steroids to gain an advantage? Do you believe Jeter was using roids? I don't. According to the survey testing they did, barely 5% tested positive, and although that seems like a low number to me, I would bet money on it that most players were not using roids. Why is it fair to them that they get to compete with players who are gaining this type of advantage? And I believe there is an advantage to be had, otherwise, what is the purpose in taking them. So I don't need studies proving that PED's enhance performance to accept the fact that they do. But why in the world should I rally behind such players instead of the guys who really deserve my support? Why should these guys get a pass? Why should they not be held accountable? I guess it is that purest in me that wants to strive for a higher standard, but I don't believe EVERYONE who plays this game is looking for an advantage through performance enhancing drugs. We can debate the relative differences between taking greenies, stealing signs, doctoring a ball all you want, but I am not willing to lump roid usage into the same category as those things and thereby rationalize that it is just part of the game. It doesn't have to be part of the game, and hopefully it won't be part of the game in the future.
A-Rod crossed a line that many didn't believe he crossed. I am not hanging him on a cross for that, but rather, he really is hanging himself on a cross. I can accept his apology, but for Gad's sakes, speak with a modecum of honesty and truth. His story just seems to have been lacking something in that dept. to me. As for how I will respond to him in the future, well I guess that depends on him. He has a chance to earn my respect back, but it is something that needs to be earned. If he can really demonstrate that he means what he says and shows that he is truly contrite, than I would be willing to see this simply as a mistake or bad judgment. If he simply is paying lip service and essentially saying whatever he feels he has to in order to get off the hook, well I am sorry, but he will get what he deserves from me. In the end, it is all up to him, as it always has been.
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Post by RJPinstripes on Feb 25, 2009 9:44:02 GMT -5
"Greenies" hey back in the day on one of my 2,345 diets I was given a script by a doctor for "greenies" as a diet program! They worked for a while?
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